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Symmetra HELP XR FAULT

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Corptech_apc
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Symmetra HELP XR FAULT

This was originally posted on APC forums on 11/16/2012


So for some reason I have yet to determine our Symmetra XR batteries are no longer showing a display. We have 7 of them daisy chained together to our Symmetra and none of them display their 2 digit status as they once were. The status displayes are now blank, of course this means I have no battery backup, and I am running on Bypass. Any thoughts, suggestions? things I should be looking for? ?? Please Help

right now I see this
Input Voltage: 209.6 VAC
Output Voltage: 211.3 VAC

Could this be a problem? that doesn't seem right to me.

more info:

Last Battery Transfer:
Internal Temperature:
93.9°F

Runtime Remaining:
0 minutes
Input Power
Input Voltage:
209.6 VAC
Input Frequency:
Output Power
Output Voltage:
211.3 VAC
Output Frequency:
Output Current:
Output Load kVA:
02.25 kVA

Output Watts at n+0:
021 %Watts
Output VA at n+0:
014 %VA
Fault Tolerance
Redundancy:
n+0
Present kVA Capacity:
16.0 kVA


Accepted Solutions
TerryKennedy_apc
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Re: Symmetra HELP XR FAULT

This was originally posted on APC forums on 11/19/2012


A couple of things... The Symmetra won't cold-start with unacceptably low (or no) battery voltage. You'll get all sorts of bizarre behavior, such as the power module fans cycling on and off, and a whole litany of really scary-sounding messages like "Internal communication fault". You need at least one good battery pack.

Power modules are hot-swappable if you have sufficient modules for the UPS to power the load when one power module is removed - you can check this from the front panel (look for "Redundancy - N+1".)

The way the Symmetra (and many other UPS) is designed, all of the battery modules are bridged in parallel. This means that if any module reports a low charge, all of the batteries are going to get a boosted charge voltage / current, even the batteries that are fine. This can lead to damage of otherwise-good batteries. It is also why I feel that all of the batteries need to replaced at the same time, with all of the replacements being the same brand/model.

No display on the XR frames can be a problem with the communication cable(s), the SYCC card in the Symmetra, or the SYXRCC card(s) in the XR frames. I've had a number of cases of intermittent problems with the communication cables, and I usually just cut the ends off and crimp new plugs on them to solve the problem. Just did this on 4 cables tonight, as a matter of fact. I doubt that's a solution endorsed by APC - replacement cables should be available from APC.

Unless you have a stockpile of spare parts, diagnosing the communication cards should be done in consultation with APC. Other than that, you're limited to trying various subsets - for example, connect only one XR frame to the UPS and if the UPS still doesn't see it try the other communication cable. Then repeat with the other XR frame.

You can certainly get stale inventory buying a SYBT2, which might explain the date codes being old even on the more recent SYBT2 battery packs. Or, as another reply said, it is possible that someone replaced only the batteries. When I do that, I print a label that says "Batteries replaced mm/dd/yyyy" and put it on the battery pack next to the serial number label. There's also the UPS's internal "Last battery replacement date" item (settable through the management card's web interface). However, that only stores a single date which isn't as useful if you only replaced some of the batteries. But see above for my thoughts on needing to replace all batteries at the same time.

It is also possible that someone bought a "refurbished" SYBT2. As mentioned in another post, official APC-refurbished SYBT2's have distinguishable serial numbers. But there's no guarantee that the SYBT2 was refurbished by APC - the seller could have changed the batteries themselves, or just wiped down the case to remove the dust and called it "refurbished".

Years ago, I posted a write-up on replacing the batteries inside the SYBT2 on [my blog|http://www.tmk.com/blog/?p=12]. I tried to fairly describe the tradeoffs between APC replacement batteries and a do-it-yourself approach. Needless to say, this is not supported or endorsed by APC.

See Answer In Context

9 Replies 9
Techsplosion_apc
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Re: Symmetra HELP XR FAULT

This was originally posted on APC forums on 11/16/2012


Yes, FD03 means they were manufactured in 2003, and AD05 was made in 2005.

Corptech_apc
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Re: Symmetra HELP XR FAULT

This was originally posted on APC forums on 11/16/2012


Thanks for the help Techsplosion

the communication cables are plugged in and have all their ferrite cores. The info you requested.


Battery System Status
Battery Capacity:000.0 %
Runtime Remaining:0 minutes
Nominal Battery Voltage:120.0 VDC
Actual Battery Bus Voltage:023.4 VDC
Battery Frame Status
FrameStatusBadGoodTotalVacant
Main!http://forums.isxusergroups.com/images/goodstat.gif! OK0004
[XR1|http://forums.isxusergroups.com/battfrm.htm?frame=1]!http://forums.isxusergroups.com/images/goodstat...! OK0000
[XR2|http://forums.isxusergroups.com/battfrm.htm?frame=2]!http://forums.isxusergroups.com/images/goodstat...! OK0000
[XR3|http://forums.isxusergroups.com/battfrm.htm?frame=3]!http://forums.isxusergroups.com/images/goodstat...! OK0000
[XR4|http://forums.isxusergroups.com/battfrm.htm?frame=4]!http://forums.isxusergroups.com/images/goodstat...! OK0000
[XR5|http://forums.isxusergroups.com/battfrm.htm?frame=5]!http://forums.isxusergroups.com/images/goodstat...! OK0000
[XR6|http://forums.isxusergroups.com/battfrm.htm?frame=6]!http://forums.isxusergroups.com/images/goodstat...! OK0004

Total 0008

I believe I have a mix of old and new batteries. I'd have to check each one for the serial #.


Corptech_apc
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Re: Symmetra HELP XR FAULT

This was originally posted on APC forums on 11/16/2012


BTW my XR system is using SYBT2 Batteries plugging into SYRMXR4

Techsplosion_apc
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Re: Symmetra HELP XR FAULT

This was originally posted on APC forums on 11/16/2012


Have you checked the battery communication cable that runs from the XR frames to the main frame? Each comm cable (RJ12-RJ12) is daisy chained together in the XR comm cards on the back of the unit, terminating in the Symmetra Communications card on the main frame. If this cable is unplugged, the display would go dark.

If the cables are connected, could you post the "Battery Voltages" and "Runtime/Bat Capacity" pages from the Status menu on the front panel of the UPS? Also, would you be able to give the age/serial numbers of the batteries? Right now I'm thinking it's one of two things, either a communication problem or a battery age problem.

If you have the time to troubleshoot over the phone (takes around 15-20 mins on average to diagnose a problem), you can also call in, 1-800-800-4272, option 5, option 3.

Message was edited by: Techsplosion

Techsplosion_apc
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Re: Symmetra HELP XR FAULT

This was originally posted on APC forums on 11/16/2012


The actual battery bus voltage should be somewhere around 138.1 vDC. With it reporting so low, I would say that there are more than a few bad batteries installed right now. If you have some newer modules, you may be able to remove all the older batteries (>3 years) that are bringing down your bus voltage and get back online. You can read the age of a battery by its serial number. If you had, for example, a battery that starts QD0519, the "05" refers to the year it was manufactured, making the example battery 7 years old.

Would you happen to know if you purchased an extended warranty? If there is a warranty on each XR frame and the batteries failed due to age, you'd be able to call in and get replacement modules.

Corptech_apc
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Re: Symmetra HELP XR FAULT

This was originally posted on APC forums on 11/16/2012


ok great, good to know, looking into that now.

So far I saw a QD09 I guess I should take it out since its almost 3 years.

I also saw an FD03 that the same as QD? and then its been in there since 2003?
I see some AD05s too but I could have sworn those were new ones

Message was edited by: Corptech

Corptech_apc
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Re: Symmetra HELP XR FAULT

This was originally posted on APC forums on 11/16/2012


haha wow.. that's pretty much all of them. Could someone be selling me refurbished units?

Will my XR system freak out if some of the XR units(SYRMXR4) have no batteries in them? Should I disconnect them from the "power chain"

thanks again.. at the moment none of my XR units show a 2 digit display. The system is still in Maintenance bypass.

Oh one more question.. is are the SYBT2's hot swappable? or do I have to put the system into Maintenance bypass, add them, and then power up the system again?


I have taken out all the batteries and SYRMXR4 do not "turn on" and show a display in maintenance mode.

Message was edited by: Corptech

Techsplosion_apc
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Re: Symmetra HELP XR FAULT

This was originally posted on APC forums on 11/16/2012


It's possible someone could have been replacing batteries inside of the modules. If they were replacements from APC you would have either received brand new ones, or official refurbished ones (refurbished batteries have a different serial structure). An empty XR frame shouldn't cause any problems, but if you can consolidate batteries and unplug the furthest XR frames it would make management easier for now.

You can hot swap both the batteries and the XR frames in a symmetra (as well as many other parts such as the power modules and network card). It's also normal for the XR's to remain off if no batteries are installed - they need both the comm cable plugged in and at least one good battery in there. It also couldnt hurt to install one battery in the main frame (preferably the newest battery you have based on the serial) and see if your battery voltage jumps up, so you can at least try and come out of bypass.

TerryKennedy_apc
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Re: Symmetra HELP XR FAULT

This was originally posted on APC forums on 11/19/2012


A couple of things... The Symmetra won't cold-start with unacceptably low (or no) battery voltage. You'll get all sorts of bizarre behavior, such as the power module fans cycling on and off, and a whole litany of really scary-sounding messages like "Internal communication fault". You need at least one good battery pack.

Power modules are hot-swappable if you have sufficient modules for the UPS to power the load when one power module is removed - you can check this from the front panel (look for "Redundancy - N+1".)

The way the Symmetra (and many other UPS) is designed, all of the battery modules are bridged in parallel. This means that if any module reports a low charge, all of the batteries are going to get a boosted charge voltage / current, even the batteries that are fine. This can lead to damage of otherwise-good batteries. It is also why I feel that all of the batteries need to replaced at the same time, with all of the replacements being the same brand/model.

No display on the XR frames can be a problem with the communication cable(s), the SYCC card in the Symmetra, or the SYXRCC card(s) in the XR frames. I've had a number of cases of intermittent problems with the communication cables, and I usually just cut the ends off and crimp new plugs on them to solve the problem. Just did this on 4 cables tonight, as a matter of fact. I doubt that's a solution endorsed by APC - replacement cables should be available from APC.

Unless you have a stockpile of spare parts, diagnosing the communication cards should be done in consultation with APC. Other than that, you're limited to trying various subsets - for example, connect only one XR frame to the UPS and if the UPS still doesn't see it try the other communication cable. Then repeat with the other XR frame.

You can certainly get stale inventory buying a SYBT2, which might explain the date codes being old even on the more recent SYBT2 battery packs. Or, as another reply said, it is possible that someone replaced only the batteries. When I do that, I print a label that says "Batteries replaced mm/dd/yyyy" and put it on the battery pack next to the serial number label. There's also the UPS's internal "Last battery replacement date" item (settable through the management card's web interface). However, that only stores a single date which isn't as useful if you only replaced some of the batteries. But see above for my thoughts on needing to replace all batteries at the same time.

It is also possible that someone bought a "refurbished" SYBT2. As mentioned in another post, official APC-refurbished SYBT2's have distinguishable serial numbers. But there's no guarantee that the SYBT2 was refurbished by APC - the seller could have changed the batteries themselves, or just wiped down the case to remove the dust and called it "refurbished".

Years ago, I posted a write-up on replacing the batteries inside the SYBT2 on [my blog|http://www.tmk.com/blog/?p=12]. I tried to fairly describe the tradeoffs between APC replacement batteries and a do-it-yourself approach. Needless to say, this is not supported or endorsed by APC.