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SmartUPS Killed My 4K Production Monitor When It Shut Down

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mweiss_apc
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SmartUPS Killed My 4K Production Monitor When It Shut Down

This was originally posted on APC forums on 8/1/2016


Today we had a power outage and the UPS kicked on. The computers shut down normally, but the monitors were left on. The UPS shut down after about ten minutes fully depleted battery.

After the power came back on, we found that our production monitor was dead. It is only 14 months old. The monitor won't power on at any level.

I thought UPS' were supposed to protect the equipment connected to them, not cause a surge when shutting down! Now I have to spend thousands on a new production monitor while this one is sent out to be repaired at my expense.


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mweiss_apc
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Re: SmartUPS Killed My 4K Production Monitor When It Shut Down

This was originally posted on APC forums on 8/17/2016


Yes, the Mallory "FP" series capacitors were among the best ever made, but a lot of the bad juju over modern capacitors was caused by the counterfeit capacitors from China, around 1999-2001. Many devices suffered premature failures. However, genuine parts, made today, are quality parts, as long as they're not made in China.

I can be fairly certain it was not a capacitor failure.

See Answer In Context

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BillP
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Re: SmartUPS Killed My 4K Production Monitor When It Shut Down

This reply was originally posted by Gareth on APC forums on 8/1/2016


How do you know a surge took it out?

mweiss_apc
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Re: SmartUPS Killed My 4K Production Monitor When It Shut Down

This was originally posted on APC forums on 8/2/2016


Because when the power came back on, the monitor no longer showed any sign of life.

I've lost a MIDI interface a year ago when the UPS toggled due to power quality issues. It seems that big voltage spikes occur when the UPS toggles from line to battery and back to line. Or even just shutting off.

Thanks to this, I lost a very expensive 4K production monitor. I may be better off without a UPS.

BillP
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Re: SmartUPS Killed My 4K Production Monitor When It Shut Down

This reply was originally posted by Gareth on APC forums on 8/2/2016


Well the UPS should  protect from spikes, that is the whole point of it, the PSU  for said monitor should also be taking a fair amount of abuse as well as they can take around a 50v variation and still work 100% so I would contact support if you are under warranty.

Also when a UPS powers off it throws a relay 1st so that shouldn't allow any spikes.

If you have one of the UPS's in the link it has a connected equipment warranty http://www.apc.com/support/service/equipment_protection_policy_emea.cfm?ISOCountryCode=AM#anchor

mweiss_apc
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Re: SmartUPS Killed My 4K Production Monitor When It Shut Down

This was originally posted on APC forums on 8/2/2016


The spikes seem to occur during transfer from UPS back to line, as the transfer to UPS didn't affect the equipment it was powering in a negative manner.

My UPS is 8 years old, according to PowerChute. How long is the warranty?

BillP
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Re: SmartUPS Killed My 4K Production Monitor When It Shut Down

This reply was originally posted by Bill on APC forums on 8/2/2016


Mark,

We apologize for the inconvenience. Most Smart-UPS sold in the U.S. have a life time equipment protection policy so you should call local support for assistance. The number is 1-800-890-4272 and they are available Monday - Friday 8 AM - 8 PM Eastern time.

The will require you to be with the unit and have the exact model and serial number that is found on a bar code sticker on the back of the unit.

BTW: since there is an issue with the unit and it is 8 years old and out of warranty you should replace the unit.

mweiss_apc
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Re: SmartUPS Killed My 4K Production Monitor When It Shut Down

This was originally posted on APC forums on 8/2/2016


I bought it 2 years ago from Refurb UPS. It's practically "new" for me. My last APC was bought in 2003 and died on me completely 2 years ago.

BillP
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Re: SmartUPS Killed My 4K Production Monitor When It Shut Down

This reply was originally posted by Gareth on APC forums on 8/2/2016


You may find the policy is void with the unit being refurbished.

mweiss_apc
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Re: SmartUPS Killed My 4K Production Monitor When It Shut Down

This was originally posted on APC forums on 8/3/2016


So much for "lifetime" warranty...

I filed a claim with our local power company. Hopefully they'll compensate me to replace the monitor.

I think I will stop using the UPS and switch to a Sola Constant Voltage Transformer. UPS relay switching produces transients depending on what part of the AC cycle the waveform is at during that instant.

BillP
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Re: SmartUPS Killed My 4K Production Monitor When It Shut Down

This reply was originally posted by Gareth on APC forums on 8/3/2016


They do imply lifetime but include a clause any company would include, "void  if tampered with" so any company selling cut price units they refurbish themselves  will be taking on any warranty themselves.

End of the day you would expect it to take out nearly everything connected powered on or not  so  it is hard to blame the UPS.

Out of interest what tests did you do to determine the UPS was the issue?

mweiss_apc
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Re: SmartUPS Killed My 4K Production Monitor When It Shut Down

This was originally posted on APC forums on 8/3/2016


I spoke with Peter Sherry at Refurb UPS and he says they don't tamper with the UPS. Basically, they replace the battery packs.

BillP
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Re: SmartUPS Killed My 4K Production Monitor When It Shut Down

This reply was originally posted by Gareth on APC forums on 8/3/2016


It would be interesting to see the test report generated from the diagnostics done to show it was within limits prior to being sold to you?

I am not being funny but I don't trust random places selling "Refurbished" units as most buy the stock, check the obvious (does it work and in your case chuck in some new batteries) then sell it at a vastly inflated price to a customer who thinks refurbished means the same as a factory refurbished unit.

Trust me, I used to work for a company who repaired and refurbished electronics and you would be shocked at some of the refurbs that went out the door (and came back in soon after)

I would be putting the liability back at the seller, not the local power company or APC as I expect both companies will be pointing the finger back at the people who refurbished it.

mweiss_apc
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Re: SmartUPS Killed My 4K Production Monitor When It Shut Down

This was originally posted on APC forums on 8/4/2016


Aside from the dirty switchover, the UPS works fine. And the one prior also worked fine for about 12 years, until it would no longer power on, whence I bought a newer model from the same seller.

But when Peter called me, he seemed to indicate underneath the surface that he wanted no part of any legal liabilities for damaged equipment.

And, the utility company denied my damage claim yesterday. So now I'm out thousands on a nearly new production monitor, which will have to be repaired.

BillP
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Re: SmartUPS Killed My 4K Production Monitor When It Shut Down

This reply was originally posted by Gareth on APC forums on 8/4/2016


Sounds to me like the capacitors are failing if it is a dirty switchover, and it also sounds like they are trying to shirk any liability as they know they are unable to properly test a UPS so I would be going back to the seller, an 8 year old UPS is past it's best. It would be interesting to see the ESR reading for the capacitors.

If the monitors nearly new then it will be covered under warranty?

A UPS should iron out any surge by it's design anyway

And if the monitor costs thousands then you should be considering an online UPS? what model do you have?

3rd, any company who will sell a 6 year old UPS with only changing batteries and not testing the basics like the capacitors and testing for problems during changeover should be refunding you and paying for a new monitor by the time you have finished with the legal action against them!

mweiss_apc
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Re: SmartUPS Killed My 4K Production Monitor When It Shut Down

This was originally posted on APC forums on 8/4/2016


It's an SUA2200R2X180 model bought at RefurbUPS.

Capacitors... now that's an interesting point. Most electrolytic caps have a service life of 30-40 years in hi-fi equipment. There was a bad run of Chinese capacitors in 1999-2001 that affected many computer motherboards and some stereo receivers and HT amplifiers made in those years. But this UPS should be past that date and be using genuine parts, not Chinese counterfeits.

I was on the phone for 20 minutes with the utility company' (Eversource) claims agent, and after a lot of back and forth pissing contest, he basically said I will have to sue them if I want to pursue it further.

The monitor is a couple months out of warranty. I've put in a for a request for service, but have not been given a date yet.

I've considered an online UPS, but two problems: it's noisy (same problem with our Sola CVS and why we stopped using it) and it uses too much electricity. Our bills are averaging $600/month as it is.

I doubt that RefurbUPS will refund me anything at all. What avenue of pursuit would you recommend?

BillP
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Re: SmartUPS Killed My 4K Production Monitor When It Shut Down

This reply was originally posted by Gareth on APC forums on 8/4/2016


Me personally I would have opened up the monitor and tried to diagnose the problem, the same with the UPS but I have quite a bit of kit to figure out what's wrong.

You from my perspective don't have a leg to stand on. You bought a refurbished UPS that wasn't properly tested from a random company. APC have no liability & the connected equipment warranty will not apply, the power company told you to jog on and so have the company you bought it from.

I'm guessing you have no warranty on the UPS either.

Just to add the caps in a UPS are under a lot more strain, you ant compare them to audio ones

Sorry.

mweiss_apc
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Re: SmartUPS Killed My 4K Production Monitor When It Shut Down

This was originally posted on APC forums on 8/5/2016


The capacitors in the inverter section, or other capacitors? From what I understand, this is a stepped sine wave inverter, not a PWM inverter. The latter puts a lot of strain on capacitors.

I've written a note to my state representative, because the power company resorted to outright lying to me about some 'tree damage' and tried to switch around the dates, then stating it was 'ongoing work'.. give me a break. Either they cut my power on purpose or they didn't! So, a complaint to the DPUC as well.

As for the UPS, I sent another e-mail to the guy at RefurbUPS. It's not some random company though.. they've been selling UPSes for more than a decade.

BillP
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Re: SmartUPS Killed My 4K Production Monitor When It Shut Down

This reply was originally posted by Gareth on APC forums on 8/5/2016


Well without testing your capacitors it is impossible to know.

10 years or not with them saying they only replace batteries who knows how many have gone out the door with undiagnosed faults?

Good luck.

mweiss_apc
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Re: SmartUPS Killed My 4K Production Monitor When It Shut Down

This was originally posted on APC forums on 8/5/2016


Yeah, who knows?

I got their final response, and their warranty is 90 days. There is no liability for anything. Lost wages, etc., but they strangely don't mention lost equipment. Hmm..

At any rate, no luck with the power company, so I've escalated a complaint to my state PUC and my state representative.

In the meantime, obtaining manufacturer repairs is taking longer than expected.

BillP
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Re: SmartUPS Killed My 4K Production Monitor When It Shut Down

This reply was originally posted by Dakota on APC forums on 8/17/2016


I repair monitors and such often. my guess is this is not the ups's fault. The capacitors in the power supply of the monitor probably went bad along time ago, the power was turned off and the capacitors probably dont have enough capacity to start the monitors psu. Next time spend the money on a quality monitor. 

mweiss_apc
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Re: SmartUPS Killed My 4K Production Monitor When It Shut Down

This was originally posted on APC forums on 8/17/2016


By "a long time ago" you mean weeks or months, right? Because the monitor is only 15 months old.

By contrast, my other monitors are H/P models and are 10+ years old and still working great.

I've repaired vintage radio sets from the 1950s in which the capacitors were still working.

The cost difference between the LG ($1399) and the Sony monitor I wanted ($24,995) is simply too great.

BillP
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Re: SmartUPS Killed My 4K Production Monitor When It Shut Down

This reply was originally posted by Gareth on APC forums on 8/17/2016


You really can't compare a well made 1950's cap to the crap fitted to modern equipment. That and the fact that some things fail for no good reason.

mweiss_apc
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Re: SmartUPS Killed My 4K Production Monitor When It Shut Down

This was originally posted on APC forums on 8/17/2016


Yes, the Mallory "FP" series capacitors were among the best ever made, but a lot of the bad juju over modern capacitors was caused by the counterfeit capacitors from China, around 1999-2001. Many devices suffered premature failures. However, genuine parts, made today, are quality parts, as long as they're not made in China.

I can be fairly certain it was not a capacitor failure.