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SRT5000 with no LCD control panel

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MarkC_apc
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SRT5000 with no LCD control panel

This was originally posted on APC forums on 10/10/2016


I have acquired what appears to be a working SRT5000 that has had the LCD screen ripped off.  Is there a procedure that can determine if the unit is still workable via the network card?  I have an AP9631 card available to try.  Also, is there a low level language (like the smart protocol) that I can use to access the communications systems in the firmware directly?

Also, is it possible to purchase a new LCD screen and ribbon cable assembly?

Thanks


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MarkC_apc
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Re: SRT5000 with no LCD control panel

This was originally posted on APC forums on 10/20/2016


Voidstar;

Actually, the battery situation is good news since I might not end up with the SRT style cartridges.  Shanon stated that the SURT battery cages are slightly longer and don't fit which is likely the reason APC says they are not compatible.  However, the front LCD panel mount that holds the battery cages was part of the damage and after repair, the SURT batteries do fit and it closes and locks - likely because I made it do that!  

Finding a LCD panel will be difficult though, but I'll keep trying.

Again thanks for all your "investigations" and tests.  Learn more every day!

Mark

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MarkC_apc
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Re: SRT5000 with no LCD control panel

This was originally posted on APC forums on 10/11/2016


Another try at this!  After some additional study, the SRT has built in console and RJ45 network connectors and equivalent to AP9630 Gen II card.  I have been able to use the console to reset the tcpip addresses, and use the NMC to see what is going on.  

The unit starts and runs.  After setting the incoming power to 240 VAC, the only critical error is the outlet power is off.   There are 3 warnings:

1. local display button fault 

2. Outlet 1 is off

3. Outlet 2 is off

I cannot get the outlets to restart - simply ignores the commands.  Also, I cannot get the unit to do a self test - gives the following messages:

Refused - internal operations - invalid state.

The UPS fault log shows a couple of ""179 - battery disconnected and one "182" UI button stuck codes/descriptors

I've measured the outlet plug AC voltages - they make no sense => L1 = 123 VAC to ground, L2 = 20 VAC to ground, L1 to L2 = 42 VAC, but then there is no load!

Again, the control panel ribbon cable and the two wire cable have been ripped off - however, I disconnected the ribbon cable at the daughter card.  I have not disconnected the two wire connector.

Also, I'm using battery cages from a SURT unit - the batteries are fully charged and great condition.

HELP - I have a great use for this unit under NMC control - do not really need the control panel, so I'd like to get it operating if possible.

Mark

voidstar_apc
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Re: SRT5000 with no LCD control panel

This was originally posted on APC forums on 10/11/2016


1. I don't think APC sells replacement displays. Perhaps you can get one off a broken UPS, or perhaps that's what happened with this one.

2. Not being able to command the outlets is not a good sign. Generally it means something is wrong with the UPS. It's strange that it's not showing an error like "internal communication fault" or "failure bypass."

3. I doubt this is fixable, but for shits and giggles, perhaps see if the UPS runs on battery and charges normally? Also, can update the internal NMC to the latest firmware and retrieve the troubleshooting logs under About->Support.

4. This is a relatively new UPS system -- strange it's in the secondhand market already.

MarkC_apc
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Re: SRT5000 with no LCD control panel

This was originally posted on APC forums on 10/11/2016


There was a "bypass" error, but it was due to the input power setting - needed to be changed to 240 VAC so that the upper limit was within range.  At that point the only "critical" error was the power outlets off.  The only hint of an actual error is the failure to execute a self test and the reason being an "Internal Operations" combined with "Invalid State".  I guess if the fault log "UI button stuck" has no affect on the ability for the power outlets to come on-line, then you are likely correct - there is some internal fault that is just not showing up.  

I have tried operating on batteries only - which it will after startup, but still no outlet power.  The charging section is working as the voltage goes up to ~216 VDC - definitely charging properly and logs that the battery % goes up.  Everything seems to operate normally, except cannot turn on the outlets!

This was a dropped unit - very heavily damaged, but somehow did not affect any of the circuit boards - just a bunch of bent up metal that I was able to repair.  Not all the "pretty", but definitely functional (if I can get it to make power!!!).  BTW, I am using SURT battery cages - I assume that is not a problem.   If I can get it to work with the NMC, it will be a great unit with my PriUPS system! - even without the control panel.

I've not had good luck with firmware updates.  Can I pull the troubleshooting logs with the existing firmware?  This is a 2015 unit - I doubt the owner tried for a warranty replacement since it was dropped off the Empire State Building.

voidstar_apc
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Re: SRT5000 with no LCD control panel

This was originally posted on APC forums on 10/12/2016


Dropped UPS -- makes sense.

You've had bad luck with UPS firmware updates right? NMC updates are rock solid, and if they somehow fail, there's a recovery procedure. You can see if there's troubleshooting logs under About->Support... I just recommend updating the NMC since newer NMC firmware tends to put more things in the logs.

MarkC_apc
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Re: SRT5000 with no LCD control panel

This was originally posted on APC forums on 10/12/2016


Got it - thanks.  I'll give it a try tomorrow.

MarkC_apc
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Re: SRT5000 with no LCD control panel

This was originally posted on APC forums on 10/13/2016


.tar anyone?

voidstar_apc
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Re: SRT5000 with no LCD control panel

This was originally posted on APC forums on 10/14/2016


Still looking at the .tar. Experimentally confirmed that the UPS works fine without an LCD display -- can turn outlets on and off.

Batteries strings are ~100V (APCRBC140 has 2 of 'em). As far as I know, all the intelligence is in the chassis the batteries slot into. Looks like you already got the lowdown on the batteries here.

UnexpectedBill_apc
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Re: SRT5000 with no LCD control panel

This was originally posted on APC forums on 10/14/2016


I just have to ask...how serious were you when you said it was dropped off the Empire State Building?

The problem with any electronic device that was dropped is that you can't really know what damage is lurking in the shadows. There's the obvious stuff like bent up metalwork and broken circuit boards, and also stuff you can't see so readily: momentary short circuits, cracked solder joints or components that suffered internal damage.

I'd look very carefully at the output relay: inspect the solder joints under strong light, make sure it's getting a suitable coil drive signal when the unit is being asked to turn on, and if all that checks out, that the coil has continuity. The microcontroller could well "believe" it's cycling power while the electronics responsible for doing so aren't working or the relay is broken.

You may be chasing bad solder joints and damaged components for quite a while, however.

MarkC_apc
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Re: SRT5000 with no LCD control panel

This was originally posted on APC forums on 10/14/2016


The damage was quite severe, so it certainly is possible that the impact could have physically shaken/broken some electronic components.  Luckily?? none of the circuit board areas, nor the PDU were physically contacted/bent/moved by the impacts - just the edge of the battery compartment and the incoming mains box was pushed inward - but not into the circuit boards.  I guess my next move is to remove the boards and start checking as you suggested.  Was hoping not to have to go there, but I've got the time and to me it's worth the effort.  I've go plenty of spare hi voltage relays - so if that is it, I can fix it (have done that).  These units are so elegantly designed and put together, its a shame they get trashed because there is so little repair information out there.

Voidstar - thanks for your help as always for testing without the LCD screen.  I was suspicious just because it consistently throws two UPS fault codes - 1. No Battery (although it obviously accepts the ~200 VDC) and 2.  the UI control panel code (don't know what that means though).  Let me know if anything shows up in the .tar file.  If I need to upgrade the UPS or NMC firmware, please let me know - I'll give it a try.

MarkC_apc
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Re: SRT5000 with no LCD control panel

This was originally posted on APC forums on 10/19/2016


Voidstar - did you have a chance to check the .tar file?  Also, can you confirm that the two UPS fault logs are not causing the outlet power issue?  One is the "no battery" fault and the other is the "UI control" fault.  These show up every time the unit is restarted.  I'm still suspicious that the new SRTs can tell when the old SURT battery cages are installed and don't allow the power to turn on ??  The brown Andersons are the same/compatible so the unit does boot up and power the NMC.

voidstar_apc
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Re: SRT5000 with no LCD control panel

This was originally posted on APC forums on 10/19/2016


I'm still looking at it -- haven't found anything interesting yet. The unit seems to think it's off and all is fine. Yet you told me you can't start a self-test or turn the outlets on -- so that's puzzling.

"UI Button Stuck" is normal because you don't have a display. The UPS keeps track of whether the buttons work so it can ignore them if they're stuck closed... hence the fault.

I get "battery disconnected" in the UPS event log if I disconnect the battery before unplugging the unit. I didn't get it when I unplugged the UPS before disconnecting the battery, but that could just be timing. Maybe this is what happened in your case?

MarkC_apc
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Re: SRT5000 with no LCD control panel

This was originally posted on APC forums on 10/19/2016


I can check on the sequence of "battery disconnected".  I wonder why APC warns that the SURT battery cages are not compatible - and what "logic" is used to determine this non-compatibility since both SRT and SURT units use the same battery array. and cages that actually "fit".   

I have SMX and SMT LCD control panels - wonder if there is any cross compatibilities in these style panels and the micro controllers (if they have the same connectors) - to at least try one to power on from the panel.  Worst case would be grounding a VCC connection - probably would not be a good thing.  These units are fairly new and expensive - not likely to find one to "borrow" the batteries and control panel.  This would be the easiest check before parting out.

BillP
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Re: SRT5000 with no LCD control panel

This reply was originally posted by Shanon on APC forums on 10/19/2016


Hello Mark, 

I wanted to note that the SURT battery cartridges (RBC44) did not have all the communication and electronics that the new SRT batteries (APCRBC140) have, which the SRT depends on for its Intelligent Battery Management. The RBC44 is also physically slightly longer, so does not fit into the SRT, it will not allow the bezel to be put on. 

It is easier to have a shorter battery, and for a smarter battery to turn off internal circuitry, to have backwards compatibility and be used with the older SURT models.

The LCD screens between the SRT and SMT/X are not cross compatible- while similar, there is many years of design difference between the two. 

MarkC_apc
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Re: SRT5000 with no LCD control panel

This was originally posted on APC forums on 10/19/2016


Shanon and Voidstar;

An interesting test result.  I have a SMT3000 (low voltage) that is essentially new that someone destroyed the LCD control panel - nothing left but the end of the ribbon cable.  I tried to "control" the unit via a AP9631 NMC and all seems to work fine EXCEPT it would not output any power AND it would not do the self test/battery check - essentially the same problems and UPS fault log messages as my SRT5000 (with no LCD control panel).  I installed an LCD control panel from another SMT3000 and now everything works as expected from the control panel - it outputs power and passes the self test.  

I'm wondering if I can find a control panel for the SRT5000, that the unit will respond the same as the SMT3000 - will output power and pass the self test???

The only other problem might be use of the SURT batteries - I understand that the battery management will not be as "intelligent", but will the wrong batteries prevent it from outputting power and fail the self test? 

 

voidstar_apc
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Re: SRT5000 with no LCD control panel

This was originally posted on APC forums on 10/19/2016


Your SMT3000 results are interesting! If I can find one, I'll try that experiment.

Today I re-tested my SRT5KRMXLT with the LCD display disconnected -- this time checking the voltage on the outlet groups with a DVM. It turns on/off the outlet group and the DVM confirms they are actually turning on and off. The only other difference between our units I can think of is I'm on firmware 4.3... might have to try on FW 4.0. Well, that and mine wasn't dropped 🙂

The individual battery strings in the SRT5KRMXLT aren't intelligent as far as I know -- all the intelligence is in the chassis the batteries slide into. Confusing (to me anyways) this chassis is called a "pack". So the battery pack is intelligent and the UPS itself is called the "internal pack".

MarkC_apc
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Re: SRT5000 with no LCD control panel

This was originally posted on APC forums on 10/19/2016


Voidstar;

Appears you have confirmed that the NMC can control the PDU with the control panel disconnected in the chassis.  Did you notice a UI "fault" registered on the NMC UPS log when the control panel was disconnected?  Knowing enough "to be dangerous" I'd be suspicious that when a control panel is smashed to smithereens, that some "bits" are sent that indicate a fault condition that is not reset until the control panel sends some clearing bits?  Just a guess - would have to know the actual coding - but the SMT3000 gives me hope.

Bottom line is that I'm going to (eventually) find a "for parts" SRT with a control panel and hook it up   (then I will likely have two "for parts" SRTs - such is life!).

Interesting about the battery chassis(s).  It is definitely a step in the right direction when you realize just how many TONS of batteries are recycled every year from UPSs.  Any advances in treating these cheaply built little batteries so that they don't dry out as fast is a really "green" advance - although not good for the battery manufacturers.  Again, knowing enough TBD, I'm suspicious that part of the "intelligence" is a non-compatibility "bit" that does not allow the SRT to operate with the SURT battery packs.  If you can find some SURT battery packs - would you try?

Again, thanks for all your help - I would really like to get this one working and replace my old SURT6000 with my PriUPS system - it is a much better fit.

voidstar_apc
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Re: SRT5000 with no LCD control panel

This was originally posted on APC forums on 10/20/2016


Yes, the SRT5K I test with gives me "UI Button Fault" and still lets me turn outlets on and off. It also gives "battery disconnected" when the battery is disconnected as explained above.

I think I need to explain the "pack" terminology a bit more (I'll admit, I'm not completely clear on it myself). The SURTD batteries you have aren't considered a "pack". I just call those battery strings... a bunch of batteries in a metal enclosure. APC seems to consider a pair of them to be a "cartridge". The "cartridge" of two battery strings slides into the "pack". The SRT5K UPS itself is a "pack".

As far as the battery strings, they're just dumb batteries in a metal box. There's probably fuses in there too. Two wires... + and -. Nothing communicating a "compatibility bit". Not like a printer cartridge. Two of them slide into the UPS which detects their presence by looking at the battery voltage... there's no physical switch inside the UPS.

The intelligence is in the UPS itself and any expansion chassis', both of which are called "packs". The main purpose is tracking the health and lifespan of the battery so you get early warning before they start bloating.

MarkC_apc
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Re: SRT5000 with no LCD control panel

This was originally posted on APC forums on 10/20/2016


Voidstar;

Actually, the battery situation is good news since I might not end up with the SRT style cartridges.  Shanon stated that the SURT battery cages are slightly longer and don't fit which is likely the reason APC says they are not compatible.  However, the front LCD panel mount that holds the battery cages was part of the damage and after repair, the SURT batteries do fit and it closes and locks - likely because I made it do that!  

Finding a LCD panel will be difficult though, but I'll keep trying.

Again thanks for all your "investigations" and tests.  Learn more every day!

Mark